Bruce Murphy
Murphy’s Law

Did Trump Steal Wisconsin?

Some point to voter suppression as a factor in this state and others.

By - Nov 11th, 2016 10:04 am
Sign-up for the Urban Milwaukee daily email
Donald Trump. Image from campaign website.

Donald Trump. Image from campaign website.

Democratic presidential candidates had won Wisconsin in seven straight elections until Donald Trump won the state by just 27,000 votes, or less than one percent of the vote.

A key reason for that victory was the surprisingly low turnout in Wisconsin. Election officials had predicted about 3.1 million would cast ballots, but the turnout was closer to 2.9 million, or about 66 percent of the voting age population, the lowest turnout in a presidential year since 1996, as the Chicago Tribune reported.

“The drop-off in turnout was particularly stark in Milwaukee County, a Democratic stronghold,” the paper noted. Hillary Clinton “got about 103,000 fewer votes this year than Obama did in 2012.”

A big part of that was a 41,000 vote decline in the vote in the City of Milwaukee.

Why the big decline here? Less enthusiasm for Clinton among African American voters has been suggested, but in fact “Black voters made up 12 percent of the national electorate this year, nearly the same as in 2012,” the New York Times reported.

Another possible explanation is that Clinton took the state for granted and did almost no campaigning here.

Some, however, believe voter suppression reduced Clinton’s total. Neil Albrecht, executive director of the city Election Commission, told the Journal Sentinel “we had some of the greatest declines in the districts we projected would have the the most trouble with ID requirements.” He said four districts of the city with the most “transient, high poverty” residents experienced trouble with people struggling to meet the photo ID requirements. “We had a lot of calls” about such problems, he added.

Ari Berman, writing for The Nation, notes that in this state “300,000 registered voters, according to a federal court, lacked strict forms of voter ID” and that voter turnout “decreased 13 percent in Milwaukee, where 70 percent of the state’s African-American population lives.”

Berman has documented voters disenfranchised in Wisconsin, and there is considerable evidence state Division of Motor Vehicle workers were giving voters misleading information about their right to vote.

Scot Ross of the liberal One Wisconsin Institute, says restrictive voting laws could have turned the state red for the first time in 32 years of presidential elections. “I’d need more data,” he says “but 27,000 votes isn’t all that many when you think about the number of people without ID.”

The biggest impact comes not from people turned away from the polls but those who were discouraged from even showing up. A study of one Texas congressional district in 2014 found that of some 271,000 registered voters who didn’t vote, 12.8 percent said it was because they thought they lacked the needed credentials under the new law. That’s more than 34,000 people.

Clinton won the national popular vote, much like Al Gore did in 2000 while also losing in the electoral college (Clinton’s margin is now at 1.5 percent, a bigger popular vote margin than the winning candidate in 1960 and 1968).  That leaves Republicans with just one popular vote victory in the last seven presidential elections. And the challenge grows worse every four years as the electorate’s Democrat-leaning minority percentage grows ever greater. It’s in this context that Republicans have passed draconian restrictions on voting in states they control.

Berman also points to North Carolina, where many restrictions on voting were passed and black turnout decreased 16 percent during the first week of early voting because “in 40 heavily black counties, there were 158 fewer early polling places.” The state’s Republican Party hailed the fact that black early voting was down as an “encouraging” sign, as the New York Daily News has reported. (Trump, however, won the state by 177,000 votes; that would be an awful lot of voter suppression.)

Then there’s Florida, which Trump won by 120,000 votes, and “has been criticized for cutting the early voting period and restricting voter registration drives,” the Daily News noted.

Florida has 29 electoral votes. Wisconsin has 10. Arizona, another state that passed voter restrictions, voted for Trump by just 84,000 votes, and has 11 electoral voters. Give those votes to Clinton and she wins.

No I don’t think it worked that neatly, but it illustrates how easily the election result could change. And the Texas study suggests voter restrictions could be discouraging and suppressing a lot of votes. However, not all those voters are likely to be Democrats.

The reality is we simply don’t know how many votes are being suppressed. And considering that two of the last five presidential elections resulted in popular vote winners losing the electoral vote, every American should be concerned about anything that might manipulate electoral votes to frustrate the will of the people.

I believe there are Republicans who are concerned about this, but they are moderates like former state Sen. Dale Schultz, who was driven out of the party.

If the concern of the hard-core Republicans who now run the state was voter fraud, they would follow the example of the Indiana law upheld by U.S. Supreme Court, which allowed those lacking proper ID to fill out an affidavit attesting to their identity.

If the concern of Republicans was voter fraud, they would have an answer to the researcher who studied every claim of this that’s arisen nationally since 2000, and found just 31 credible incidents of voter impersonation out of one billion votes cast.

If the concern of Republicans was voter fraud, they’d be able to prove it was happening in Wisconsin. Former Republican Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen, had a chance in 2014 to make that case and couldn’t. As Federal Judge Lynn Adelman concluded, “The defendants could not point to a single instance of known voter impersonation occurring in Wisconsin.”

If the concern of Republicans was voter fraud, current Republican AG Brad Schimel would have been able to prove it was happening in a federal case this summer. But as Judge James Peterson concluded, “The Wisconsin experience demonstrates that a preoccupation with mostly phantom election fraud leads to real incidents of disenfranchisement.”

The only question is how much disenfranchisement is going on. Was it enough to throw the race to Trump in Wisconsin? There’s simply no way to know. And that’s alarming.

Categories: Murphy's Law, Politics

87 thoughts on “Murphy’s Law: Did Trump Steal Wisconsin?”

  1. WashCoRepub says:

    The last sentence could be written, before Photo ID was enacted:

    “The only question is how much voter fraud is going on. Was it enough to throw the race to (insert Democrat here) in Wisconsin? There’s simply no way to know. And that’s alarming.”

  2. PMD says:

    Something tells me Trump voters aren’t thinking about anything being rigged anymore.

  3. Frank Galvan says:

    Republican Jim Crow.

  4. TB says:

    I agree with PMD — the election was obviously not rigged because Trump won.

  5. Matt S. says:

    Come on, Trump didn’t “steal” Wisconsin.

    Any postmortem assessment by Wisconsin progressives has to come to terms with the fact that the Democratic GOTV operation was sorely lacking this time around. Sure, Voter ID played a role, and maybe the Comey letter. But the Milwaukee GOTV effort that I participated in this time around was a far cry from what it was in 2008 and 2012.

    Why? Well, look to the consequences of Act 10 (Milwaukee used to have very robust GOTV operations led by labor unions), the dampened enthusiasm of core Dem voters for Clinton, plus the Clinton campaign’s decision not to campaign hard in Wisconsin.

    I believe this weakened GOTV effort had a much greater effect on the depressed Milwaukee turnout than Voter ID.

  6. happyjack27 says:

    The election was not rigged because Trump won, no. That would be absurd.

    Nobody is saying that Trump winning caused the election to be rigged.

    What they are saying is, that by the numbers, it’s very likely that the GOP’s voter ID efforts – which they have publically admitted are targeted at suppressing demographics that vote Democratic – had well more than enough impact to change the outcome.

    So you see, the chain of causation goes like this:
    * GOP try to pass voting restrictions to try to win more elections
    * they succeed at passing voting restrictions
    * they succeed at suppressing the vote
    * they win more elections

    anyone could have predicted this. many did – the GOP themselves predicted it. That’s why they did it. They’ve been rather forthcoming about their motivations.

    And now it happens, and all the sudden everyone turns around and says “oh no, there’s no causality there.”

    Riddle me this: if Hillary had been elected, despite the numbers being about the same, and this article was written, would people be shouting “you’re just claiming that voter id’s had a disproportionate impact on the election because hillary won.” No! of course not! But ironically that scenario would be LESS persuasive!

  7. Bruce says:

    Perhaps it is time to accept the fact that Hillary Clinton was never received with the same enthusiasm as Barack Obama. Here in southeast Michigan, Detroit (predominantly black) voters stayed home in droves compared with 2008 and 2012. Macomb County, just north of Detroit and a Democratic Party/blue-collar stronghold, went for Trump.

    Clinton’s big claim to fame was that she was first in line to be the first woman POTUS and the woman who stood by loyally despite Bill Clinton’s womanizing. It wasn’t because of her achievements as senator in New York (none) or her achievements to bring peace and stability to the Middle East (none). It was a last name and gender. The Democratic Party ignored the younger people who enthusiastically supported Bernie Sanders and ensured a loss on November 8.

    Bloomberg’s website had a pretty grim article about this: What This Election Taught Us About Millennial Voters

    The biggest irony of this election is that blue-collar workers felt more comfortable with Trump than the Democratic Party’s candidate. Perhaps it was all of the pay-to-play reports, or perhaps it was the cozy arrangements with big banks and brokerages, or perhaps it was the Benghazi and classified email scandals (which were seen as “she’s too important to play by the rules that the rest of have to”), or perhaps it was little things like her reported rudeness toward and disdain for the Secret Service protectors, or perhaps it was her questionable health, or perhaps it was her “basket of deplorables”.

  8. AG says:

    So we had record primary turn out, even with voter ID laws in place… but now that the terrible candidate the Democrats put up was seen as worse than the terrible candidate the Republicans put up, we’re supposed to believe voter ID caused the outcome? Ah, no… sorry.

  9. Derek says:

    Honest question here but with only ~95% of the vote counted isn’t there a chance Hillary can still win the state? By my calculation if the remaining votes to be counted are in Democrat heavy areas she can catch up. Basically there seems to be roughly 150k votes left, and she would need to win 60% of them

  10. happyjack27 says:

    you’re assuming the conclusion there, AG.

  11. wisconsin conservative digest says:

    Funny! whine, whine whine!! They did not come out cause they did not like Hillary and the last 8 years when they expected Hope And Change, effort the working families it just got worse.

  12. Observer says:

    Nothing would change even with conclusive undeniable proof. I’d hoped for a new Supreme Court, one that overturn both Citizen’s United AND gerrymandering. Now it’s a WCD world.

  13. happyjack27 says:

    Actually despite unprecedented GOP obstruction and their outspoken attempt to make Obama look bad by blocking legislation and even supreme court nominees at the expense of American people, things actually did improve for working families.

    It would of course be a lot better for working families if workers wagers followed productivity gains: https://thecurrentmoment.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/productivity-and-real-wages.jpg

    But everybody knows that it’s the GOP blocking increasing the federal minimum wage, spouting “trickle down” theory as a reason. We’ve tried that experiment. It failed.

    So yeah, things could be better. But that was beyond Obama’s control. If you want to make them better I suggest voting for congressmen who actually support working families.

  14. C Murn says:

    A huge actor Clinton ignored is how hard it is for the party in power with an incumbent leaving office to win the presidency a third time in a row. The opposition is always more fired up, plain and simple. Her campaign ignored that in Wisconsin and Michigan. I would argue that is the biggest factor in her losses in those states.

  15. PMD says:

    AG believes voter fraud is worse than evidence suggests because well he knows, but he doesn’t believe voter disenfranchisement is real because well he knows.

    WCD when do you think all the jobs will come flooding back to areas Trump promised he would return jobs to?

  16. happyjack27 says:

    i’ve heard that remark as well – that she overestimated wisconsin support.

    but that strikes me as both wisconsin-centric and present information-centric.

    recall the polls all the way leading up to the election gave here around a 70-90% victory chance. That was the information then. And given that information, there were plenty of other states were you’d get a much greater increase in likelihood of winning per voter swayed (or turned out).

    The rational choice given the information available at the time would NOT have been to increase campaigning in wisconsin.

  17. happyjack27 says:

    PMD: well that explains a lot. A very fortunate position to be in, I must say! Us lowly people have to resort to inaccurate “numbers” and “empirical data”. It’s a lot of work.

  18. AG says:

    1. I’ve given plenty of hard evidence. Specifically evidence from right here in Milwaukee. You choose to ignore it.

    2. What data suggests otherwise? That minorities showed up less when a minority wasn’t running?

  19. happyjack27 says:

    *looks for “hard evidence” from AG on this thread, finds none…*

  20. PMD says:

    AG, did you miss Bruce Murphy’s long comment from a week or two ago proving how that 2004 report from Milwaukee was unequivocally debunked? It’s why the voter integrity crowd never cites it when they talk about voter fraud.

  21. PMD says:

    Here it is (Bruce Murphy’s word):

    Regarding the “report” of 2004, you’ll note there is no author or name credited as author. This was done without authorization by some members of the Milwaukee Police Department as Police Chief Heggerty later noted, in distancing the department from it. Even so, as the story suggests, the “report” found no evidence of double voting or invalid addresses. Later, D.A. Mike McCann and U.S. Attorney did a joint bipartisan study of Milwaukee’s voting and found no evidence of a conspiracy and minuscule examples of illegal voting, mostly a handful of felons. Biskupic was a Republican appointee who not shy about investigating Democrats.

  22. AG says:

    You must have been asleep during all the other discussions on voter fraud. Ah well… maybe next time.

  23. Wisconsinfather2000 says:

    One good thing about this (s)election, of the 3 candidates the Koch brothers were backing, only 1 won!

  24. happyjack27 says:

    so, not going to provide any “hard evidence” that voter fraud has a bigger impact on the election outcome than the disproportionately supressive affect of voter id laws…

    i guess i’ll just ignore your comment then.

    i mean that’s fine, but…

    1.) if you’re not ready and willing to back it up, don’t say it. (with non-debunked reports, preferably…)
    2.) don’t expect to persuade anyone if you don’t. in fact it will more than likely have the opposite effect.

  25. Bruce Thompson says:

    I think the best way to understand this election is as a rebellion against elites who look down on white working class people. Unfortunately for the country Clinton fit that profile.

  26. wisconsin conservative digest says:

    Bruce we finally agree with you. Read the book by Kevin Phillips and see how this has gone. Worse in Mad city. bib money big spending has taken over from Grass roots actions. Ron Johnson went back to that.

  27. Benny Nota says:

    While there are a number of factors behind Clinton’s loss – some of which she might have been able to change, some of which dumb-ass voters might have been able to change (i.e., voting third-party when that has no effect), and some of which the party itself might have been able to change – it’s hard to deny that Republican voter suppression efforts have not had some effect.

    And, as Murphy notes, many Republicans were quite open about their intentions with these efforts.

    I suggest we take them at their word, just this once.

    In an election this close, nearly *any* factor that could have gone the other way is a reasonable contender for why the election went the way it did. But this one is more grim than most – because it cuts at the heart of democracy.

    If one party is unwilling even to allow the people to express their will, what legitimacy do their victories really have?

    The legitimacy of representative government rests upon that claim to represent the will of the voters. When Republicans (or anyone else) manipulate voting to prevent that from happening (whether by absurdly onerous ID laws, restricting access to selective polling places, preventing registration, or gerrymandering districts), they undermine their own legitimacy.

    Taking all that into account, I think Republican politicians in many places might be said to have obtained office via a coup rather than an election.

  28. jake says:

    This is the real reason: white working class feel that they deserve government handouts and are entitled to a bigger piece of it than anyone else. Trump used this and scapegoated minorities to do so thus super powering the southern Strategy that Wisconsin Conservative Digest approves of.

    Yet I am interested and I have a real question: WCD do you condemn the white supremacy that is happening all over the nation in Trumps name?

  29. Jason says:

    One of my co-workers lives downtown and is a very proud Hillary supporter. He walked into his polling place at Centennial Hall and no voter were there. He knew then though 60 percent of this country hates Trump that thee other 40 percent came to vote for him. In the end, maybe instead of spending a million dollars on fireworks to be shot over the Hudson River in New York that maybe those resources should have went to winning Wisconsin.

  30. happyjack27 says:

    Wcd: if I may comment on the Citizens United thing: the actual ratios remain little changed after va before: democratic campaign donation still average on the order of $20, while GOP much higher, and from far fewer people.

    While it may be said that citizens united disproportionally hurts democratic campaigns,

    1) how effective that $ spent has been questioned – particularly the 2008 election. It didn’t seem to make that big of a difference.
    2) while a higher percentage of democrats want to get rid of citizens united, the numbers are really high for both parties. On the order of 90%.
    3) that number is for voters, not elected officials. For elected officials, it’s closer to 100%-0% than 95%-85%.

    Which begs the question: why do people keep voting into office representatives who clearly do not side with them on important policy issues?

  31. Milwaukee Native says:

    Hillary Clinton got nearly 2 million votes than Trump. He’s even more part of the trust-fund elites than Clinton–but he rocked a baseball cap at rallies and spoke in made-for-reality-TV, boorish sound bites. (Build that wall! Lock her up!)

    Nothing in Trump’s low-fact policy platform (except possibly about repealing trade deals) will offer the “forgotten working class” anything more than Clinton’s and the Dems well-defined policies. But we live in a Reality TV World and Trump played that game well, helped by an indulgent media. Most people who voted for Trump don’t think he’s qualified for the job–or has the temperament for it.

    Many voters simply overlooked Trump’s racism, misogyny, xenophobia, bragging about sexual assault and entitlement, and other rampant incivility. Others gladly voted for him because of those traits.

    If the Twitter Prez with ADHD runs the country like he ran his many bankrupt businesses we’ll all be in trouble, including disgruntled white males.

  32. wisconsin conservative digest says:

    Sure Happyjack, Clintons sold out for millions from Wall st. long time go. They have outraised the GOP since 2008, in big numbers across the board.For every Kochs, the Dems have Soros, Gates, Buffets and many more. Money isn’t the problem, failure to provide the working, inner city, people is what killed them they vote for Trump.
    He can help, the Left will never get it done.

  33. happyjack27 says:

    Wcd:

    1) I already gave you ballpark figures on the average donation. You can do your own research to verify.

    2) I already gave you a chart about working class share of productivity gains. You can check the congressional voting record on that one.

  34. Jason says:

    Milwaukee Native, I don’t disagree with your comments. I will tell you this about 8 percent of the work force is working two jobs and I happened to be one of them. I know many in this audience presume being born mostly white and male means that you have won the lottery. I also admit I have had more doors open for me than an American Indian on the Menomonee Reservation or a black child raised on 12th and Brown. What I see in Trump is opportunity? What if a company like Apple is allowed to bring home its $150 billion in cash overseas home. Now imagine if the other $4 trillion dollars is brought home from other S&P 500 companies. Teachers, firefighter and all pensions and 401K’s would benefit. People would feel richer and buy new homes or vehicles, and hire carpenters and plumbers. More tax money would flow into the government treasuries to provide for new infrustructure (roads, bridges, schools). Our country has been starved for a generation of its riches and it is time to come home.

  35. wisconsin conservative digest says:

    Jason, you are only one with brains. The Left talks about more regs on business, more taxes, more costs that will chase them from his country with their jobs.

  36. BT says:

    Oh that’s right, those O’Keefe videos CLEARLY SHOWING WISCONSIN’S OWN SCOTT FOVAL GOING IN DEPTH ABOUT THE DEMOCRATS INCREDIBLE FRAUD MACHINE WERE JUST ALL “CLEVER EDITING”!!! I have to remind myself of that daily (and I was told so by the major media, so it MUST be 100% factual, they’re all real journalists and thus, have zero bias!) or else I get going down the wrong path and think those silly videos, with that deceptive hidden camera and such clever editing to actually LOOK like Foval and the rest of the scumbags that make up the hidden and very dirty underbelly of the Democratic Party are actually truthful! I’m sure that’s why Foval was immediately fired too, since whenever someone makes a falsely edited video smearing you to make it LOOK like you’re running a massive vote fraud operation, the smart thing for employers to do is fire the smeared person immediately, you expect me to believe that complete pile of crap excuse?? Oh no, no massive vote fraud here, it was that awful voter ID thing, no one has ID these days! That is laughably bad! The only people you can fool with that BS are people who’d enthusiastically support some corrupt as hell, medically near brain dead old bag who STOLE the primary from Bernie Sanders and you’ve got to be just STUPID to fall that low!!!

    That O’Keefe guy must be getting so many offers from big time Hollywood studio heads now, because wow, that was some truly incredible edit work! I mean, anyone with half of a brain would certainly be misled into thinking the Democrats really do rig elections and hey, maybe they even rigged their own primary! Oh wow, what if that tricky O’Keefe had looked into the Democrat primary, he might have made them think they somehow screwed Bernie out of the nomination! It certainly would be an easy sell, when Bernie was packing them in, only running second to Trump in crowd size and enthusiasm, while KILLary couldn’t fill a damn broom closet for another one of her “performances” complete with the odd eye movements, staring into space and being bedazzled by balloons and bright colors, forgetting what city she’s in (or what planet she lives on!) of course though, Bernie lost fair and square! No way did brain dead Killary’s campaign insert saboteurs into Bernie’s campaign, of course not! Plus, if they ever caught someone for doing such dishonest and awful things, like a Debbie Wasserman Schultz type person, Killary would NEVER turn around and immediately hire such a dishonest scumbag for her own campaign, she’s got morals and standards! Just like how Killary would NEVER do something like hear Haiti had just been devastated by a massive earthquake and think “CHA-CHING!!! MONEY MAKER!!!! TIME TO PAYBACK SOME FAVORS!!!! CHA CHING!!!!” No, no way would she do that, BUT SHE DID!!!!

    SHE DID ALL OF THAT AND MUCH, MUCH MORE!!! QUIT CRYING, QUIT LOOKING FOR SILLY AND DOWNRIGHT STUPID EXCUSES, YOU HAD A TOTALLY CORRUPT AND DISHONEST TERRIBLE CANDIDATE AND DESPITE THE NOW TOTALLY IRRELEVANT MAJOR MEDIA’S BEST ATTEMPTS AT PAINTING TRUMP (and anyone who dared to say a peep of anything good about him!) AS THE BIG RACIST, SEXIST, EVIL SCUMBAG, MANY OF US ARE SMART ENOUGH TO SEE RIGHT THROUGH THE NONSENSE AND SEE THE POSITIVE MESSAGE, THE POSITIVES OF A NON WALL STREET AND WALMART OWNED KILLARY AND WE VOTED, YOU LOST!!! SO DEAL WITH IT!!!

    We didn’t block traffic and scream F-bombs in 2008 or 2012, how about being adults and responding likewise??!!! My Facebook timeline has recorded for all time (or as long as FB is around) from 2012 when President Obama had OBVIOUSLY won and I saw just a few people saying things like “we need a recount” or “there was fraud” (and yeah, FOVAL was hard at work then of course, so there was fraud but what’s new with the Dems!) I POSTED “HEY DEAL WITH IT, PRES OBAMA HAS BEEN RE-ELECTED, DROP THE SILLY TALK AND LET’S MOVE FORWARD AS A NATION”. Of course, just like the crybaby Walker recall clowns, the crybabies are out AGAIN, wah wah oh voter suppression! Voter ID did it! Yeah sure, who has an ID these days anyway? Quit the crying, oput oin your big boy/big girl pants and get back on with life, your felon lost!

  37. happyjack27 says:

    We’ll that was a very emotion filled response…

  38. wisconsin conservative digest says:

    E,action ws not run for the most voted just concentrate on electoral votes. Trump lost by 400,000 total votes but that is meaningless. The small states will never allow the Electoral college to go away.
    It was decided to have the college to protect the small states and also it could be necessary to form alliances like Europe.

  39. Jason says:

    WCD, this maybe where we disagree. Trump made promises and he ran as a populist. Many of is voters are lower class economically. If I was Trump in his first 100 days demand a $10 minimum wage in 2017 and a $12 minimum wage in 2020. I would then allow business the freedom to not pay the 6.25 percent that is being paid into Social Security coffers, so they can recoup some of the losses in higher labor. If Trump wants to stay a winner. On another note, Here is a long shot. Vice presidential nominee,Tim Kaine takes over the Democratic Party in 2018 to make room for the new Senator Elect Michelle Obama of the Commonwealth of Virginia. Obama v. Trump 2020.

  40. AG says:

    I just figured it out. Trump won because of people like happyjack. Those who so passionately believe what they believe that they refuse to hear others points of view or try to understand others perspectives. Those who so strongly wish to argue and prove others wrong that they missed half the conversation.

    Because of them, we have the turd elected to office we have now and they wonder why half the country fisagree with them…

  41. BT says:

    Sure its emotion filled when you’re now listening to this incredibly similar narrative coming from all the usual sources and it is so predictable, the “angry white men”, of course racism, how ANYONE of Hispanic descent should feel so scared now (even though polls show not a majority of course, but a sizeable % of people “self-ID’ing” as Hispanic voted for Trump and there’s a reason to be angry about all of this, it is because there WAS a message that of course NONE of the screaming haters even bothered to listen to (they never do) and its a totally positive message, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HATE, IT IS POSITIVE, PRO-USA AND USA=MELTING POT!! I understand the issue of needing to handle immigration and the f-ed up system we’ve got (which Pres Obama sure did nothing to fix) but we’ve got millions of undocumented people here who are good people! Honest, hard working people who play a role in our economy and our nation and we need to fix that, we also need to throw out any criminals, too!

    So, when I hear the endless smearing of Trump and anyone daring to support him, just like many have been smeared before him, to me THAT is hate, THAT is divide and conquer! There was historical precedent, recent precedent for when he DID NOT SAY ALL MEXICANS ARE RAPISTS AND MURDERERS, but of course why let facts get in the way of electing a criminal like Hillary?

    The truth was he was saying rumor has it that among the many decent undocumented people coming here, that rumor has it and Trump was tight early on with the Border Patrol people and many residents in that area (many of whom are of Hispanic heritage, even if they’re 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th etc generation US born) so why insult these people he’s trying to help as they’re caught in the middle of this onslaught of drug smuggling, human trafficking, etc and an under manned Border Patrol, etc and total indifference from DC, “sanctuary cities” that have nothing to do with the USA’s old role of being a safe harbor for persecuted people to move to but now as enforced by the hammer from DC, where we don’t deport even violent criminals, etc. Yet, given an ambiguous statement in a speech that can be spun and our “journalists” get to work, spinning away, lying through their teeth! Hey, have fun while it lasts there at the NYT, MSNBC, etc I think you just signed your own death sentence by going so far overboard with this election reporting. (and was the 2014 Walker vs that woman who had nothing to do with the success her father and brother had at trek race a “test run”? Sure looks like it now, the bias was off the charts then for the first time too! They took their normal biased garbage and just flat out joined the whatever her name was campaign, oh that’s right, Mary Durke! or was it Molly Blurke? Who cares, she’s probably snowboarding with another imaginary boyfriend!)

    Of course, the Mariel boatlift was the precedent for what many allege down south, that ,mixed in with the decent people looking to work and build a life here, that Mexico is doing same thing as happened during the boatlift. (that’s those grainy scenes at start of Scarface Al Pacino version for all of you who need to now google “Mariel boatlift”) Just google it, I’m sick of typing and about time you read more than a bumper sticker at a time for once!

  42. Jason says:

    30 percent of Hispanics that voted in Florida voted for Trump. Hispanics won Trump Florida. If he does make Hispanics and millennials richer in 2020, say your fired Donald Trump.

  43. Jason says:

    30 percent of Hispanics that voted in Florida voted for Trump. Hispanics won Trump Florida. If he does’nt make Hispanics and millennials richer in 2020, say your fired Donald Trump.

  44. Thomas Spellman says:

    Good morning I see the usual suspects are at it again. The question did Trump steal Wisconsin or the corollary did Clinton lose Wisconsin. The Wisconsin State Journal ran a story about the voter turnout by county and it tells and not only an interesting story but also identifies who as in individuals did not vote. It seems that that story needs to be expanded on. Clinton loses by 27,000 Trump only did 6,000 better than Romney and Clinton did 200,000+ less than Obama. Along with this we KNOW the folks who did not vote by comparing the voter roles for 2012 (Obama) and 2016 so we can actually identify those who did not vote and if someone want to survey them it would not be that hard. By the numbers and the distribution which except for Milwaukee County where 40,000 do not vote for Clinton and 28,000 do not vote for Trump. How in the polling did this not turn up? Are no voting pattern questions asked like did you vote in 2012 and are you voting this time etc. Lets try to stay on topic folks.

  45. Patty says:

    Maybe a journalist could pull up the voting records for several wards in 53206 and contact those who voted in 2012 but not in 2016. Investigating will give you much more reliable explanations than guessing. My GUESS (and I am a liberal) is that the DNC ran a horrible candidate. This election was focused on anti-establishment candidates and once the DNC dropped Bernie, Trump won. I’m not saying that Sanders supporters voted for Trump, I’m saying they went 3rd party or stayed home. Combine that with the fact that Hillary offered no concrete plan to help inner-city African-Americans and you have your evidence for why she lost. I have seen no evidence whatsoever that Pres. Obama was successful in any way over the last 8 years in helping Milwaukee African-Americans obtain family supporting jobs or have opportunities to send their children to better schools. I’m not blaming Pres. Obama. He can’t do it alone. What I am saying is that the hope that these people had 8 years ago is gone and they had no faith that Hillary would some how fix what an African-American president could not.

  46. wisconsin conservative digest says:

    Patty is right!

  47. Thomas Spellman says:

    Patty’s hypothesis is a reasonable one The question is who in Milwaukee did not vote for Clinton and then again who did not vote for Trump and why. What role if any does Choice/Charter School support play into this. Is it possible that rather than vote for Jill S, Bernie supporters did not vote at all. That does no seem to make sense but then again what does make sense? Yes the raciest would vote for Trump but all the others to ignore all those “flaws” of Trump’s history and everything he said since he declared his intentions. In order to vote for him they have to discount all of what he said and what he stood for. How do you do that and not be a raciest? Oh yes Clinton was worse! Hummmm as I say Peace

  48. Yoop says:

    I’m happy to see civil discourse here, even though there are opposing opinions. I haven’t seen that much lately.

  49. Milwaukee Native says:

    @Jason (34), I agree that it will indeed help stabilize our economy and American life in general if corporations stop moving their assets overseas to avoid paying taxes. I’m skeptical that Trump, who proudly said that NOTpaying taxes meant he was “smart.”

    Changing tax policy might help but it will also require corporations shifting to a belief that they actually have a civic/national responsibility to pay taxes to sustain the society in which they have flourished. One effect of globalization, besides many job losses in developed countries, has been a lack of allegiance to a country, even it’s a company’s home base. A business can simply move assets and change their corporate “citizenship.”

    Even at the state level, Wisconsin’s wealthiest billionaire Diane Hendricks pays no state taxes. And County Exec Chris Abele, one of Milwaukee’s wealthiest residents, has not paid any state tax in something like a decade. This “stiff-the-government” mentality is not sustainable–even as it is legal by our convoluted tax code.

  50. wisconsin conservative digest says:

    Milwaukee needs jobs, kids educated, and crime reduced, not worrying about taxing peoel more, that solves nothing, that is why the Left cannot run anything.

  51. happyjack27 says:

    well there goes your “civil discourse”…

  52. happyjack27 says:

    Just saw this on 538:
    http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/voter-turnout-fell-especially-in-states-that-clinton-won/
    could do a factor analysis on this with 1 such factor being voter suppression

  53. Benny Nota says:

    WCD: It hasn’t occurred to you that “jobs, kids educated, and crime reduced” all are efforts that require (among other things) money – and that the tax code that allows the extremely wealthy to avoid their fair share of tax payments creates a shortfall of government income that could otherwise be used to help solve those problems?

    Every time any program is proposed to create jobs or train people for them, or for schools, or to reduce crime (whether through programs aimed to prevent people from becoming criminals in the first place, or the more dubious notion that more cops on the street prevent crime), the usual pushback is “but we can’t afford that – we’re already strapped economically with the current tax structure.”

  54. Jason says:

    Milwaukee Native, let us not confuse being wealthy and paying into income tax. If your example of Diane Hendricks or Chris Abele not paying income tax whether it is state or national bothers you, well what are you going to do. How do you make some one pay income tax if their not collecting a check or giving to much to local charity. Shall we tell Diane Hendrick’s hey, your husband is dead give us half of your company? In theory we could do it if we lived in Russia. In the case of Trump’s legal tax strategies, where was the IRS if he did something illegal. Where was Obama the last eight years to prevent this from happening. If you were a partner of Donald Trump in a business venture wouldn’t you think he was an idiot if he didn’t take those tax breaks. Most Americans take advantage of loop holes. Ever year I take a standard deduction, and I write off interest taxes from school loans. I would be an idiot not too.

  55. Jason says:

    Did Trump steal Florida? Sunday night before election day, it was reported by Charlie Gasparino that Trumps own team had him losing Florida by one. Based on a model of only getting 25 percent of the Hispanic vote. Another factor was the flux of Puerto Ricans into Florida as the U.S. territory of Puerto Rico is in a financial crisis. Democrats excelled at finding these American citizens at the local airports and getting them registered to vote. What Trumps polling team did not expect was stronger support from Latinos in Florida. Trump beat his polling numbers with Hispanics by 4.5 points carrying him to victory in the state by 1 point.

  56. wisconsin conservative digest says:

    Everyone has wanted to solve this tax deal for years but no one will agree on Flat tax, from the Left.
    Then they run out and pass all kinds of deductions, keep taxes high so trillions sit over seas and then they whine about something that will solve nothing. WE need jobs, education, training, not taxes fro punishment.

  57. wisconsin conservative digest says:

    Benny as usual you Lefties are full of crap.
    If those ideas worked why are we in the sad shape after eight years of them?
    Left has been in charge and Bernei/Hillary keep telling us how bad it is.
    After 8 years we still have fewer people working than when Bush was in.

  58. Jason says:

    Let’s get minimum wage to $10 in 2017 and $12 in 2020 but let us also make workers pay for Social Security. No more back door games where the employer must pay 6.25 percent. Lower class employees must open their eyes to the truth. They don’t pay 6.25 of their check to Social Security. They carry the burden of 12. 5 percent.

  59. Jason says:

    Does American Politics explode in March of 2017? The debt ceiling is coming and this where Democrats spin hay into gold and Republicans politically kill each other.

  60. wisconsin conservative digest says:

    Jason not one thing you not will develop any jobs, improve the economy but will help a few. Dumb Bunny ideas. This is what we have been following this path, for 8 years .
    The only way you an get improving economy is with more business, more activity, then the competition for employees increase salaires which is what is happening little now.

  61. happyjack27 says:

    actually no, wcd, the federal minimum wage is still $7.25, last time i checked.

    (Though some placed raised their local minimum wage, and their economies are now booming.)

  62. happyjack27 says:

    unsurprising, of course. Put the money into hard workers who spend a larger fraction of it, you’re going to increase the flow of money and capital, and that’s going to spur and growth and labor demand. economics 101.

  63. Jason says:

    Happy Jack there is truth in your argument. How do personal tax cuts give you a big bang when more people are on some form of government assistance than workers in the work force. Raising the minimum wage is a good start if Trump is truly a populous. This maybe where you and I differ. I would differ with you probably in this wrinkle. I would keep the personal tax rate as is on the rich but slash the corporate rate to 10 percent. This would cause inflation and I would freeze all government assistance except Social Security. People on government assistance would have to eventual go back to work than.

  64. Benny Nota says:

    “Left is in charge”?

    Apparently you haven’t noticed who’s run Congress for most of the last 8 years…or who our governor is…

  65. wisconsin conservative digest says:

    Funny I thought Obama was president.

  66. happyjack27 says:

    Yes, WCD, Obama was president the past 8 years.

  67. Thomas Spellman says:

    Folks We know who did not so lets ask some of them to find out why ASAP

    Peace

  68. Milwaukee Native says:

    Jason, (54), much of the tax code (loop holes) we have is the result of intensive lobbying by high-paid lobbyists hired to achieve specific tax regulations. There’s nothing “accidental” about it.

    Once those regs are in effect, of course all individuals and companies they were designed to benefit are likely to take advantage of them. Same with farm subsidies, other corporate welfare and hiding money in tax shelters. It’s all part of how elites take care of themselves and perpetuate the rich getting richer. It’s why most new wealth created since the Great Recession has gone to the very wealthiest. Even Warren Buffett says it’s completely out of whack.

    Yes, a few parts of the tax code, such as deducting student loan and mortgage interest were done to benefit the middle class.

  69. AnnieMary says:

    I am so sick of voter ID complaints! ID should be required. Requiring ID is not “racist”. Assuming “minorities” cannot obtain ID is “racists”. What are you trying to emply about “minorities”?
    Are you saying they are criminals? Are you saying they are dumb? Are you saying they are ignorant?
    Seriously, why do you make the bigotted claim that they are incompetent? Do you think that you are better than, or smarter than them?

  70. Thomas Spellman says:

    What we are say is that for some it is a matter of not have the records that are required for some it is going to a DMV office for some they are lazy for some they are sick for some …… We do not know all the reasons for somes but we do know WHO did not vote in 2016 but who voted in 2012 and they should be asked why. More importantly even in Wisconsin HALF of the CITIZENS did not vote so either Clinton or Trump are being elected by 25% of the CITIZENS OF THE US and that should scare all of us.

    PS If you are tired of Voter ID wait until the forces begin to destroy what is left of our country. Where they will screw up is with the Military and the body bags of our loved ones fighting WARS that are not ours or more importantly would never have been fought except for the Military Industrial Complex. If you build a boat where the expendable “ammunition” cost a million dollars for each shot that is the ultimate weapon of waste.

  71. wisconsin conservative digest says:

    Thomas, what a bunch of crap. You really do not realize it, but their are little Green men inside of the Trump campaign form Krypton, super heroes that are going to run everything like Superman making clowns like you into gardeners for food.
    Conspiracy buffs.

  72. happyjack27 says:

    I know it may sound incredulous, But Thomas was refering to the U.S.S. Zumwait. Which is a real thing. http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/navy-ships/a23738/uss-zumwalt-ammo-too-expensive/

    AnnieMary, if you’re sick of people complaining about votes being disproportionally suppresed under the guise of fixing a non-existent problem, the either A) get used to it, or B) join ’em.

  73. happyjack27 says:

    The other two things that Thomas mentioned were:

    “wait until the forces begin to destroy what is left of our country.”

    by “forces” you can tell from context he was refering to “powers that be” – the GOP legislature, executive, and – if they get their way – STOLEN judiciary. One need only look at trumps racist, anti-LGBT equality, anti-science, etc. appointments to see where this country is headed.

    “Where they will screw up is with the Military and the body bags of our loved ones fighting WARS that are not ours.”

    This is obviously a true statement. One need only mention the quagmire that was Iraq, which was entered into under false pretense (an impeachable offense, mind you).

  74. Thomas Spellman says:

    So WC you are into name calling again. “Conspiracy Buffs” Not much different from the “N” word or all the other words to seek dominance while putting down the person being addressed. Sorry all the attacks on me do not change the physical facts that only explosives can destroy three buildings in NY City on that fateful day. Sorry I truly wish the “official story” was true but it is not and there is the real TREASON. Peace

  75. happyjack27 says:

    Alright, WCD, I’ll give you that one. But Thomas’ previous comments were factually true.

  76. wisconsin conservative digest says:

    thomas, I work with people of all races daily, do you? I am racist, against little green people, from Krypton, but will protect you from them. I have insider info.

  77. Thomas Spellman says:

    Ah Happyjack27 Are you not a person who understands basic physics? Will gladly work through the physics for you if that will help. Call me 414 403 1341 if you want. You understand that the WAR in Iraq was started with a FALSE FLAG operation just as the Gulf of Toklin was a FALSE FLAG. Do not be afraid of being insulted for the truth. As I say in order to believe that the “officials story” is true you have to believe Cheney and Bush Hummmm as I say. Peace

  78. happyjack27 says:

    WCD, please talk like an adult.

  79. happyjack27 says:

    Thomas, I have a brother who believes in that conspiracy theory – I have already heard way more than I can tolerate. No thank you.

    And yes, I have a pretty advanced understanding of physics and mathematics.

  80. Thomas Spellman says:

    And to answer WCD’s other question. I am retired and yes I lived at 21st and Juneau for 33 years and now live in Delavan. Moved out here to take care of my mother in law. Glad you believe in Little Green men, I do not You see I unfortunately understand physics and so I have a choice I can pretend that the “official story” is true or I can point out to people that it is not true. I prefer to be honest to myself. Peace

  81. happyjack27 says:

    “Glad you believe in Little Green men, I do not.”

    Classic appeal to ridicule fallacy / straw man fallacy backfire!

  82. Thomas Spellman says:

    Happyjack27 Why call it a conspiracy theory? If you understand math and physics, then you understand that there are hypothesis and theories. Once a person’s hypothesis is proven to be true then it becomes a Theory. For me all the evidence I needed was and is, is the symmetrical collapse of WTC 7. For that to happen ALL the columns MUST FAIL simultaneously or the building TIPS over and does not collapse into its own footprint. ONLY explosives can cause ALL the columns to fail simultaneously! That is, it! Nothing, else is necessary to prove the “official story” to be in essence another part of the FALSE FLAG operation. Sorry you got burned out before you could see the Truth. Thanks for the support Sometimes discussing emotional stuff with family, family gets in the way. Have two older brother one military so and the other a Chem Eng who just refuse to go there even now 15 years later. Peace

  83. happyjack27 says:

    “If you understand math and physics, then you understand that there are hypothesis and theories.”

    No. that is science.

    “Once a person’s hypothesis is proven to be true then it becomes a Theory.”

    No, that is religion.

    In science, a hypothesis cannot be proven, it can only be disproven. And that is precisely it’s greatness. If it could not be disproven, then it would be “unfalsifiable”, which is immediately rejected in science as “note even wrong” ( http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong ) The very credibility of a scientific claim is that it has stood up against so many tests and experiments that could have proved it wrong but failed to.

    I stopped reading after that point. You lack of even the most basic understanding of philosophy of science leads me to believe that the rest was uninteresting – and, given that it was probably based on that false premise, probably fallacious.

    And this lack of a basic understanding of philosophy of science i suspect helps enable your conspiratorial thinking process that leads you to unsound conclusions.

  84. Thomas Spellman says:

    Oh Happyjack27 I must say a good laugh Sounds like you have a PhD or some such. I will admit that I try not to get so involved. Maybe and this is serious you did not play with your blocks and other toys that when something was pulled out at the bottom it tipped over it DID NOT fall into its own footprint. I can understand the frustration of brother trying to communicate with you. Peace

  85. happyjack27 says:

    I assure you the frustration is mine.

  86. SilvrDrgn says:

    Maybe voter fraud exists. Maybe it doesn’t. That we don’t know is alarming!
    Maybe voter disenfranchisement exists. Maybe it doesn’t. That we don’t know is alarming!
    Though, why is voter disenfranchisement allowed to be presumed real, but voter fraud is not?
    Where are the stories about massive disenfranchisement? I am not talking about the anecdotal one person here and one person there. Statements like “in this state “300,000 registered voters, according to a federal court, lacked strict forms of voter ID”” in this article and any other article are careless. Where does that number come from? How is it calculated? If there are that many, they should be easy to find. PRODUCE THEM!

  87. happyjack27 says:

    @SilvrDrgn:
    We know voter fraud exists, and the approximate impact.
    We know voter suppression exists, and the approximate impact.
    Neither is “presumed” to be real – they are both known with certainty to be real.

    Many many easy to find numbers and data and studies and where they come from and how they are calculated are littered throughout this very article.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *