Comments on: Exit Freeway, Get Drunk? http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2009/12/11/exit-freeway-get-drunk/ Championing Urban Life In The Cream City Thu, 09 Feb 2012 06:02:21 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Dave Reid http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2009/12/11/exit-freeway-get-drunk/comment-page-1/#comment-37294 Dave Reid Sun, 03 Jan 2010 21:44:08 +0000 http://urbanmilwaukee.com/?p=3685#comment-37294 @michael james An urban environment gives people options, i.e. walking, transit, cab service, and so on, whereas the establishments in question, out at Pabst Farms, will essentially have no other way to access except by car, therefore people will drive. Further I do hope people drinking on Water St. take the options you laid out to get to the bar, otherwise they will be drinking and driving, but again at least in an urban environment they have options. PS It is UrbanMilwaukee.com @michael james An urban environment gives people options, i.e. walking, transit, cab service, and so on, whereas the establishments in question, out at Pabst Farms, will essentially have no other way to access except by car, therefore people will drive.

Further I do hope people drinking on Water St. take the options you laid out to get to the bar, otherwise they will be drinking and driving, but again at least in an urban environment they have options.

PS It is UrbanMilwaukee.com

]]> By: michael james http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2009/12/11/exit-freeway-get-drunk/comment-page-1/#comment-37098 michael james Thu, 31 Dec 2009 07:13:57 +0000 http://urbanmilwaukee.com/?p=3685#comment-37098 I have recently noticed that the bars downtown and on Water Street are very close to the highway as well, and, as these establishments obviously produce far more drunk drivers on any given night than would a few new chain restaurants in the repulsive County of Waukesha (where F150 driving barbarians live), I suggest, that from this day fourth, only true “Milwaukee Urbanites” be allowed to drink downtown… unless you can prove you arrived by bus, taxi cab, street car, or on your own two tootsies (but preferably by streetcar), no booze for you!!!... and please leave your bicycles and other self propelled forms of transportation at home (these are for going to: work, Altera, and weekend farmers markets) because yes my friends, it’s also illegal to drive these with a blood alcohol level above the legal limit. …I don’t think the “suburban hate” is very constructive I have recently noticed that the bars downtown and on Water Street are very close to the highway as well, and, as these establishments obviously produce far more drunk drivers on any given night than would a few new chain restaurants in the repulsive County of Waukesha (where F150 driving barbarians live), I suggest, that from this day fourth, only true “Milwaukee Urbanites” be allowed to drink downtown… unless you can prove you arrived by bus, taxi cab, street car, or on your own two tootsies (but preferably by streetcar), no booze for you!!!… and please leave your bicycles and other self propelled forms of transportation at home (these are for going to: work, Altera, and weekend farmers markets) because yes my friends, it’s also illegal to drive these with a blood alcohol level above the legal limit.

…I don’t think the “suburban hate” is very constructive

]]> By: colucci http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2009/12/11/exit-freeway-get-drunk/comment-page-1/#comment-37037 colucci Wed, 30 Dec 2009 14:35:31 +0000 http://urbanmilwaukee.com/?p=3685#comment-37037 Sorry if I came of raging in my post. You're point is clear: If you don't want people to drive drunk, don't make them drive to the bars. I totally agree that what's needed is an emphasis on a walkable urban environment and effective mass transit (ie. trains, not buses). The problem now is that Milwaukee like most US cities is too sparsely populated to justify train lines out to the suburbs. So somehow you have to argue that new train lines will lead to smarter, higher density growth, rather than serve the needs of those who don't want it in the first place. It's a tough sell. Subways anyone? ;-) D'nardo Sorry if I came of raging in my post. You’re point is clear: If you don’t want people to drive drunk, don’t make them drive to the bars.

I totally agree that what’s needed is an emphasis on a walkable urban environment and effective mass transit (ie. trains, not buses). The problem now is that Milwaukee like most US cities is too sparsely populated to justify train lines out to the suburbs. So somehow you have to argue that new train lines will lead to smarter, higher density growth, rather than serve the needs of those who don’t want it in the first place. It’s a tough sell.

Subways anyone? ;-)

D’nardo

]]> By: Dave Reid http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2009/12/11/exit-freeway-get-drunk/comment-page-1/#comment-36472 Dave Reid Mon, 21 Dec 2009 17:10:52 +0000 http://urbanmilwaukee.com/?p=3685#comment-36472 @colucci Yes, I definitely agree that a big big part of the discussion that is often left out is that of the driving. Though, that is in part what I'm getting at with this article. In that when we design so people can't walk, take a bus, or call a cab then people will drive. Whereas in a walkable urban environment people have the option, no need, or no desire to drive, and therefore minimize this problem. @colucci Yes, I definitely agree that a big big part of the discussion that is often left out is that of the driving. Though, that is in part what I’m getting at with this article. In that when we design so people can’t walk, take a bus, or call a cab then people will drive. Whereas in a walkable urban environment people have the option, no need, or no desire to drive, and therefore minimize this problem.

]]> By: colucci http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2009/12/11/exit-freeway-get-drunk/comment-page-1/#comment-36465 colucci Mon, 21 Dec 2009 15:14:51 +0000 http://urbanmilwaukee.com/?p=3685#comment-36465 I think this discussion is missing the larger context of "drunk driving". Everyone, from politicians to the media to the general public, blames drunk driving for highway deaths. If a person has an accident with 0.08 pba, the entire accident is blamed on "the drunk". It's the easy way out. In reality, DRIVING is the main killer. Most highway deaths occur driving to and from work among perfectly sober people. I learned this going through 5 years highway accident statistics when I lived in MN - which despite their denial drinks just as much as WI. I cringe every time I hear someone repeat the completely false and misleading mantra "Drunk driving is the number one killer of you people between the ages of 15 and 24". If someone is engaged in a dangerous act (driving) you can't say that another factor (alcohol, cell phones, eating, putting on make-up) is the sole cause of an accident. When is the last time you read a Journal article about the tragedy of suburban commuter life causing thousands of deaths every year? Or an article about the gross irresponsibility of the offending driver who deliberately chose to live 20 miles from work knowing full well that they are increasing their chance of killing another person? I really don't care if people choose to live in the suburbs. It's their choice. I do however have a problem when their choices affect my lifestyle. Yes I want to raise the legal limit back to 0.10 and I want to lower the drinking age back to 19. Not that I have strong opinions on this or anything.... D'nardo I think this discussion is missing the larger context of “drunk driving”. Everyone, from politicians to the media to the general public, blames drunk driving for highway deaths. If a person has an accident with 0.08 pba, the entire accident is blamed on “the drunk”. It’s the easy way out.

In reality, DRIVING is the main killer. Most highway deaths occur driving to and from work among perfectly sober people. I learned this going through 5 years highway accident statistics when I lived in MN – which despite their denial drinks just as much as WI. I cringe every time I hear someone repeat the completely false and misleading mantra “Drunk driving is the number one killer of you people between the ages of 15 and 24″. If someone is engaged in a dangerous act (driving) you can’t say that another factor (alcohol, cell phones, eating, putting on make-up) is the sole cause of an accident.

When is the last time you read a Journal article about the tragedy of suburban commuter life causing thousands of deaths every year? Or an article about the gross irresponsibility of the offending driver who deliberately chose to live 20 miles from work knowing full well that they are increasing their chance of killing another person?

I really don’t care if people choose to live in the suburbs. It’s their choice. I do however have a problem when their choices affect my lifestyle. Yes I want to raise the legal limit back to 0.10 and I want to lower the drinking age back to 19.

Not that I have strong opinions on this or anything….

D’nardo

]]> By: Dave Reid http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2009/12/11/exit-freeway-get-drunk/comment-page-1/#comment-36092 Dave Reid Wed, 16 Dec 2009 23:15:54 +0000 http://urbanmilwaukee.com/?p=3685#comment-36092 @O Bayshore Mall, Mayfair, and South Ridge I'm not sure these are in the City of Milwaukee's backyard or in our environment, as none are located in the City of Milwaukee, though certainly they are closer than Pabst Farms. And other than Bayshore off hand I don't remember South Ridge or Mayfair (other than the Cheescake factory) expanding anytime recently. As far as Bayshore it is interesting because it actually has some ability for people to walk or bike (actually pretty easy ride from downtown Milwaukee) to it, both from the residences it contains and the neighborhood that is actually walkable from this mall. That said the point of the article is primarily that when we design for people to drive to a destination, at the exclusion of other modes of transportation, people will drive regardless of if they are having a drink. i.e if we design solely for the automobile, people will drive. @O Bayshore Mall, Mayfair, and South Ridge I’m not sure these are in the City of Milwaukee’s backyard or in our environment, as none are located in the City of Milwaukee, though certainly they are closer than Pabst Farms. And other than Bayshore off hand I don’t remember South Ridge or Mayfair (other than the Cheescake factory) expanding anytime recently. As far as Bayshore it is interesting because it actually has some ability for people to walk or bike (actually pretty easy ride from downtown Milwaukee) to it, both from the residences it contains and the neighborhood that is actually walkable from this mall.

That said the point of the article is primarily that when we design for people to drive to a destination, at the exclusion of other modes of transportation, people will drive regardless of if they are having a drink. i.e if we design solely for the automobile, people will drive.

]]> By: O http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2009/12/11/exit-freeway-get-drunk/comment-page-1/#comment-36086 O Wed, 16 Dec 2009 22:13:55 +0000 http://urbanmilwaukee.com/?p=3685#comment-36086 As someone who actually lives outside of Milwaukee, I think the people in the City of Milwaukee should take a closer look at their environment before commenting on issues outside their city. I am not trying to diminish the issue, but did you bring up these issues when Bayshore Mall, Mayfair, and South Ridge expanded? Each one of these is located within close proximity to express way ramps…and are all in your backyard. As someone who actually lives outside of Milwaukee, I think the people in the City of Milwaukee should take a closer look at their environment before commenting on issues outside their city. I am not trying to diminish the issue, but did you bring up these issues when Bayshore Mall, Mayfair, and South Ridge expanded? Each one of these is located within close proximity to express way ramps…and are all in your backyard.

]]> By: John Mal http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2009/12/11/exit-freeway-get-drunk/comment-page-1/#comment-36075 John Mal Wed, 16 Dec 2009 19:03:28 +0000 http://urbanmilwaukee.com/?p=3685#comment-36075 Is it just me, or do most of these people have a bug up thier butt about cars and roads? Not everyone lives downtown and works within walking distance of home. And mass transit isn't cost effective to place everywhere. How about focusing on some of the other city problems, like high property tax, fraudulent inner city day care centers, welfare abusers, delinquent fathers, inner city crime. None of which will be solved by adding busses unless you plan on loading them up and driving them off the Hoan bridge! Is it just me, or do most of these people have a bug up thier butt about cars and roads? Not everyone lives downtown and works within walking distance of home. And mass transit isn’t cost effective to place everywhere. How about focusing on some of the other city problems, like high property tax, fraudulent inner city day care centers, welfare abusers, delinquent fathers, inner city crime. None of which will be solved by adding busses unless you plan on loading them up and driving them off the Hoan bridge!

]]> By: Ken http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2009/12/11/exit-freeway-get-drunk/comment-page-1/#comment-36068 Ken Wed, 16 Dec 2009 18:26:46 +0000 http://urbanmilwaukee.com/?p=3685#comment-36068 "Scott, we both know the situations you describe are by far the exceptions and not what usually happens."- What?!?! Those are by far not the exceptions. Most people don't go to Applebee's to get drunk. Yes there are the exceptions, however saying that most people at Applebee's or TGI Friday's are too drunk to drive is just wrong. “Scott, we both know the situations you describe are by far the exceptions and not what usually happens.”- What?!?! Those are by far not the exceptions. Most people don’t go to Applebee’s to get drunk. Yes there are the exceptions, however saying that most people at Applebee’s or TGI Friday’s are too drunk to drive is just wrong.

]]> By: Dave Reid http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2009/12/11/exit-freeway-get-drunk/comment-page-1/#comment-35966 Dave Reid Tue, 15 Dec 2009 18:18:22 +0000 http://urbanmilwaukee.com/?p=3685#comment-35966 @c. Yeah, we so often point to the drinking part of the problem, but ignore the driving portion. When we design for people to drive, and exclude other modes such as transit, walking, or even biking, then what do we expect of people. They will drive. @c. Yeah, we so often point to the drinking part of the problem, but ignore the driving portion. When we design for people to drive, and exclude other modes such as transit, walking, or even biking, then what do we expect of people. They will drive.

]]> By: Dave Reid http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2009/12/11/exit-freeway-get-drunk/comment-page-1/#comment-35957 Dave Reid Tue, 15 Dec 2009 16:26:12 +0000 http://urbanmilwaukee.com/?p=3685#comment-35957 @Scott My big picture point is that when you design for auto only access, you will get people driving it's just the reality. Certainly there are many who have a beer with dinner and then drive home and are just fine, but the full bars these places contain aren't after the one beer person now are they. @Scott My big picture point is that when you design for auto only access, you will get people driving it’s just the reality. Certainly there are many who have a beer with dinner and then drive home and are just fine, but the full bars these places contain aren’t after the one beer person now are they.

]]> By: c. http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2009/12/11/exit-freeway-get-drunk/comment-page-1/#comment-35951 c. Tue, 15 Dec 2009 15:00:38 +0000 http://urbanmilwaukee.com/?p=3685#comment-35951 Interesting perspective, Dave. Nice article. Now if only our legislators would think this way! Interesting perspective, Dave. Nice article. Now if only our legislators would think this way!

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