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	<title>Comments on: Miller Park vs Busch Stadium &#8211; Milwaukee vs St. Louis</title>
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	<link>http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2009/05/28/miller-park-vs-busch-stadium-milwaukee-vs-st-louis/</link>
	<description>Championing Urban Life In The Cream City</description>
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		<title>By: Jesse Hagen</title>
		<link>http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2009/05/28/miller-park-vs-busch-stadium-milwaukee-vs-st-louis/comment-page-1/#comment-39846</link>
		<dc:creator>Jesse Hagen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 15:30:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://urbanmilwaukee.com/?p=1994#comment-39846</guid>
		<description>Jim, I believe you&#039;re taking that history out of context. 

As for why the county was handed off so many responsibilities, such as the zoo, park system, freeways, and the stadium had less to do with the competance of the county, but that it functioned as a de-facto metropolitan government. This was the logical course at that point in history, but two generations later the same rationale would dictate moving responsibilites from the county to a defacto or dejure metropolitan entity. 

Also, Frank Zeidler believed in an anti-urban policy to deconcentrate the metro in response to the nuclear threat of the 1950&#039;s.  Since the city destroying bombs of today were yet to be invented, the idea was to spread the city out, so any strike would merely decimate and not obliterate a city.

Now, I&#039;m not necessarily judging him, but you have to understand the motivations and ideas that were in mind. Mayor Zeidler did some great things for this city, but we can&#039;t look to him for urban policy.

That said, why would Norquist put up a proposal for a new ballpark Downtown, years before the Brewers are talking about moving? That&#039;s political suicide if I ever heard it. The idea for a Downtown stadium was never fully considered for a lot of reasons and I would place my money on many people&#039;s sheer resistance to change.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim, I believe you&#8217;re taking that history out of context. </p>
<p>As for why the county was handed off so many responsibilities, such as the zoo, park system, freeways, and the stadium had less to do with the competance of the county, but that it functioned as a de-facto metropolitan government. This was the logical course at that point in history, but two generations later the same rationale would dictate moving responsibilites from the county to a defacto or dejure metropolitan entity. </p>
<p>Also, Frank Zeidler believed in an anti-urban policy to deconcentrate the metro in response to the nuclear threat of the 1950&#8217;s.  Since the city destroying bombs of today were yet to be invented, the idea was to spread the city out, so any strike would merely decimate and not obliterate a city.</p>
<p>Now, I&#8217;m not necessarily judging him, but you have to understand the motivations and ideas that were in mind. Mayor Zeidler did some great things for this city, but we can&#8217;t look to him for urban policy.</p>
<p>That said, why would Norquist put up a proposal for a new ballpark Downtown, years before the Brewers are talking about moving? That&#8217;s political suicide if I ever heard it. The idea for a Downtown stadium was never fully considered for a lot of reasons and I would place my money on many people&#8217;s sheer resistance to change.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2009/05/28/miller-park-vs-busch-stadium-milwaukee-vs-st-louis/comment-page-1/#comment-39793</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Feb 2010 22:55:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://urbanmilwaukee.com/?p=1994#comment-39793</guid>
		<description>There was a reason why Milwaukee County Stadium was originally built in the valley in the early 1950s-it was central to the entire county. Freeways containing mass transit were to be built both east-west and north-south of it (unfortunately, only one of those happened). The Zeidler Administration could not find a suitable location within the city and was not willing to expend the political capital to clear the land necessary for such a project (Frank told me that while he was alive). Like the freeways, Frank was happy to have the County take the lead on this project. Those reasons are equally valid today as they were in 1950. Also, the city proposal to have the stadium put on Park East land (why tear down a freeway to put a stadium on it?) happened too late. Norquist had years to make the proposal but didn&#039;t. Only near the end did he suggest it. So, criticism should be directed at him if people are going to blame Bud Selig. In the end, though, the current location is the best one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There was a reason why Milwaukee County Stadium was originally built in the valley in the early 1950s-it was central to the entire county. Freeways containing mass transit were to be built both east-west and north-south of it (unfortunately, only one of those happened). The Zeidler Administration could not find a suitable location within the city and was not willing to expend the political capital to clear the land necessary for such a project (Frank told me that while he was alive). Like the freeways, Frank was happy to have the County take the lead on this project. Those reasons are equally valid today as they were in 1950. Also, the city proposal to have the stadium put on Park East land (why tear down a freeway to put a stadium on it?) happened too late. Norquist had years to make the proposal but didn&#8217;t. Only near the end did he suggest it. So, criticism should be directed at him if people are going to blame Bud Selig. In the end, though, the current location is the best one.</p>
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		<title>By: Design Corner #15 &#8211; The Blogs at HowStuffWorks</title>
		<link>http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2009/05/28/miller-park-vs-busch-stadium-milwaukee-vs-st-louis/comment-page-1/#comment-37587</link>
		<dc:creator>Design Corner #15 &#8211; The Blogs at HowStuffWorks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 21:25:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://urbanmilwaukee.com/?p=1994#comment-37587</guid>
		<description>[...] 3) Miller Park vs Busch Stadium &#8211; Milwaukee vs St. Louis  [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 3) Miller Park vs Busch Stadium &#8211; Milwaukee vs St. Louis  [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2009/05/28/miller-park-vs-busch-stadium-milwaukee-vs-st-louis/comment-page-1/#comment-25466</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 04:39:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://urbanmilwaukee.com/?p=1994#comment-25466</guid>
		<description>Bud Selig is a crook!  You folks should lead the effort to impeach that SOB!  His greed and stupidity is killing baseball and holding cities hostage to build new stadiums or killing the family tradition with high costs and threats to physically relocate teams - he should be put on death row!  

His statement that St. Louis would not be in the running to host an all-star game anytime soon unless a new stadium was built is one of many examples of his poor leadership.  George Bush was next in line to become commissioner BIT Bud made up his own rules and ignored Bart G&#039;s dying wishes.  Therefore all teams will have new stadiums payed by hard working tax payers, ballgames ending in a tie, globalization of America&#039;s pastime, steroids, and tainted records!  Oh yea - and baseball minded presidents! :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bud Selig is a crook!  You folks should lead the effort to impeach that SOB!  His greed and stupidity is killing baseball and holding cities hostage to build new stadiums or killing the family tradition with high costs and threats to physically relocate teams &#8211; he should be put on death row!  </p>
<p>His statement that St. Louis would not be in the running to host an all-star game anytime soon unless a new stadium was built is one of many examples of his poor leadership.  George Bush was next in line to become commissioner BIT Bud made up his own rules and ignored Bart G&#8217;s dying wishes.  Therefore all teams will have new stadiums payed by hard working tax payers, ballgames ending in a tie, globalization of America&#8217;s pastime, steroids, and tainted records!  Oh yea &#8211; and baseball minded presidents! <img src='http://urbanmilwaukee.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2009/05/28/miller-park-vs-busch-stadium-milwaukee-vs-st-louis/comment-page-1/#comment-25104</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 06:39:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://urbanmilwaukee.com/?p=1994#comment-25104</guid>
		<description>First of all those renderings aren&#039;t anything to get all excited about those are about as rough as they come!  I personally can see the argument on both sides, Miller Park being built in the up and coming park east freeway land would have obviously been a good thing but you know what all those bars run shuttles to and from the game anyways and downtown Milwaukee is really holding its own even without Miller Park, spread the wealth around i say!  We could debate this all day but the new Miller Park REALLY helped out the Menomonee Valley which has had a great comeback with a clean, safe look, and new companies moving in.  And you can&#039;t tailgate in the city to the same extent and what do we want all that vacant land for parking? Even if it was only for 10,000 cars alot more surface lots would be around! 

I have never heard anyone complaining about how the stadium should have been downtown as strangers and friends alike chug down beers and brats while playing catch in the parking lot getting amped up for the Brew Crew and from being south of the border in IL and bringing friends that stadium is raved about by cubs/whitesox fans alike who wish their stadiums were even close to Miller Park!  What an atmosphere and the stadium turned out quite well i must say!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First of all those renderings aren&#8217;t anything to get all excited about those are about as rough as they come!  I personally can see the argument on both sides, Miller Park being built in the up and coming park east freeway land would have obviously been a good thing but you know what all those bars run shuttles to and from the game anyways and downtown Milwaukee is really holding its own even without Miller Park, spread the wealth around i say!  We could debate this all day but the new Miller Park REALLY helped out the Menomonee Valley which has had a great comeback with a clean, safe look, and new companies moving in.  And you can&#8217;t tailgate in the city to the same extent and what do we want all that vacant land for parking? Even if it was only for 10,000 cars alot more surface lots would be around! </p>
<p>I have never heard anyone complaining about how the stadium should have been downtown as strangers and friends alike chug down beers and brats while playing catch in the parking lot getting amped up for the Brew Crew and from being south of the border in IL and bringing friends that stadium is raved about by cubs/whitesox fans alike who wish their stadiums were even close to Miller Park!  What an atmosphere and the stadium turned out quite well i must say!</p>
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		<title>By: Joel</title>
		<link>http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2009/05/28/miller-park-vs-busch-stadium-milwaukee-vs-st-louis/comment-page-1/#comment-23992</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 23:15:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://urbanmilwaukee.com/?p=1994#comment-23992</guid>
		<description>Sooo, pick up and move Miller Park to the lakefront???! that would be sweet</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sooo, pick up and move Miller Park to the lakefront???! that would be sweet</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin M</title>
		<link>http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2009/05/28/miller-park-vs-busch-stadium-milwaukee-vs-st-louis/comment-page-1/#comment-23944</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 17:37:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://urbanmilwaukee.com/?p=1994#comment-23944</guid>
		<description>I can also confirm that the Brewers are looking into various possibilities, including mixed use developments, for the land surrounding the stadium.  Seeing as the Ballpark Village around Busch Stadium is just a proposal, it should be considered equal to these proposals, some of which are of a similar nature.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can also confirm that the Brewers are looking into various possibilities, including mixed use developments, for the land surrounding the stadium.  Seeing as the Ballpark Village around Busch Stadium is just a proposal, it should be considered equal to these proposals, some of which are of a similar nature.</p>
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		<title>By: Shane</title>
		<link>http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2009/05/28/miller-park-vs-busch-stadium-milwaukee-vs-st-louis/comment-page-1/#comment-23915</link>
		<dc:creator>Shane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 02:54:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://urbanmilwaukee.com/?p=1994#comment-23915</guid>
		<description>Kevin K also brings up many valid points. The main article was written with an obvious bias... which is too bad considering Milwaukee is already dealing with an image crisis. The author takes his time slamming Miller Park, but gives only cursory attention to its highlights.  

The roof serves an incredibly useful purpose given our climate - ask Cleveland.  The roof also makes the stadium a year round venue.  

Tailgating is also overlooked. It was a major consideration in determining the current location. The idea of tailgating in a structure is, frankly, foolish. The glaring exposure to liability, alone, is cost prohibitive. 

Finally, the author ignores the fact that the Menomonee Valley is being redeveloped and that there are discussions currently going on to create attractions to compliment Miller Park. I have it from at least one reliable source that the Brewers are researching new methods to generate revenue once the stadium is paid off. 

So next time a side by side comparison between cities is made, do not just cite the &quot;City X Tour Guide.&quot; Some balanced reporting would be appreciated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin K also brings up many valid points. The main article was written with an obvious bias&#8230; which is too bad considering Milwaukee is already dealing with an image crisis. The author takes his time slamming Miller Park, but gives only cursory attention to its highlights.  </p>
<p>The roof serves an incredibly useful purpose given our climate &#8211; ask Cleveland.  The roof also makes the stadium a year round venue.  </p>
<p>Tailgating is also overlooked. It was a major consideration in determining the current location. The idea of tailgating in a structure is, frankly, foolish. The glaring exposure to liability, alone, is cost prohibitive. </p>
<p>Finally, the author ignores the fact that the Menomonee Valley is being redeveloped and that there are discussions currently going on to create attractions to compliment Miller Park. I have it from at least one reliable source that the Brewers are researching new methods to generate revenue once the stadium is paid off. </p>
<p>So next time a side by side comparison between cities is made, do not just cite the &#8220;City X Tour Guide.&#8221; Some balanced reporting would be appreciated.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff O</title>
		<link>http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2009/05/28/miller-park-vs-busch-stadium-milwaukee-vs-st-louis/comment-page-1/#comment-23858</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff O</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 13:02:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://urbanmilwaukee.com/?p=1994#comment-23858</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve often thought about how Milwaukee blew it by building Miller Park where it is, especially when I go by all the ugly empty lots in our downtown. It&#039;s just one more example of our sprawling city&#039;s neglect of the downtown and proximity to a beautiful lake.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve often thought about how Milwaukee blew it by building Miller Park where it is, especially when I go by all the ugly empty lots in our downtown. It&#8217;s just one more example of our sprawling city&#8217;s neglect of the downtown and proximity to a beautiful lake.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin K</title>
		<link>http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2009/05/28/miller-park-vs-busch-stadium-milwaukee-vs-st-louis/comment-page-1/#comment-23845</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 08:25:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://urbanmilwaukee.com/?p=1994#comment-23845</guid>
		<description>First, I really don&#039;t get where you make the St. Louis vs. Milwaukee metro comparisons.  I know the MO vs. WI comparisons are close, but the St. Louis metro is about 65% larger than the Milwaukee metro, and I&#039;m not quite sure they can draw the same conclusions.  Personally, for almost every game I&#039;ve gone to I&#039;ve taken the 15 Oakland bus to WI ave, then the 90 to Miller Park.  If you&#039;re a UWM student (as I was) this is FREE!!!! with the UPASS!!  Seriously, the best way to get to and from games.  For the times I&#039;ve driven there, getting out and home is the worst.  
Also, although I&#039;m not against a train transit system, it was a heck of a lot cheaper to build a stadium with a roof on with taxpayer funds than it would be to build a light rail system connecting multiple areas with Miller Park being a stop.    

One HUGE oversight in this article is that Ballpark Village in St. Louis does not exist.  It is not real.   I personally, without any architecture experience, could draw a few cool looking buildings that could be build around Miller Park  for $600+ million.. but the fact is that these buildings, like Ballpark Village, are not standing, are not going to be funded in the near future, and under current circumstances may not be built for a long while.  I don&#039;t get how you justify even mentioning Ballpark Village in this article being a factor, as it exists only on paper.   Right now, according to the Cardinals, the area is being used for a softball field and Parking. 

Another thing that keeps bothering me is good old Detroit.  I mean with Busch stadium, they (like most others.. and us) built the new stadium next to the old one.  But the Tigers didn&#039;t do that.  In fact the Lions and Tigers (and, in the vicinity is rumored to be the the site of a new Redwing&#039;s stadium) have completely bulldozed an entire swath of their downtown to accommodate their new stadium row.  I know downtown Milwaukee is not a direct comparison to downtown Detroit, but I really want to know how much it helped relocating the Tiger&#039;s stadium from Corktown to Downtown, and I would like to make some sort of comparison as to how exactly it would benefit Downtown by relocating the Brewers there from their current (old) location.

And that brings up Downtown Milwaukee&#039;s impact.   Which swath of Downtown buildings are you willing to crush in order to build a Miller Park-like stadium downtown.  No piece of land that large is unoccupied along the Milwaukee River.  And that cute old-school stadium looks nice and would be cool if it would have been build about 80 years ago, but nobody would build it today unless it was economically viable today.  

Yes, I like Miller Park the way it is, and although some stadiums are built right in their downtown area&#039;s, ours isn&#039;t, and hasn&#039;t been since perhaps Borchert Field sat where I-43 sits now.  It&#039;s hard to imagine downtown with a Miller Park-like ballpark.  What it would gain from it and what it would lose for it to happen could be one long discussion.  Thankfully, the &quot;Thursday Architects&quot; were wrong, and Miller Park didn&#039;t open west of Milwaukee.  They opened on 1 Brewers Way IN Milwaukee.  I know countless fans who wouldn&#039;t have it any other way.  25 games into this season, and we&#039;ve got the 9th highest avg attendance of any major ball park, including a higher ballpark utilization percentage than St. Louis (88.2 vs. 86.3), and it really seems that it eventually comes down to how large the stadium is itself and  how good the team that plays in it is more than where it is and how many transit stops are by it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, I really don&#8217;t get where you make the St. Louis vs. Milwaukee metro comparisons.  I know the MO vs. WI comparisons are close, but the St. Louis metro is about 65% larger than the Milwaukee metro, and I&#8217;m not quite sure they can draw the same conclusions.  Personally, for almost every game I&#8217;ve gone to I&#8217;ve taken the 15 Oakland bus to WI ave, then the 90 to Miller Park.  If you&#8217;re a UWM student (as I was) this is FREE!!!! with the UPASS!!  Seriously, the best way to get to and from games.  For the times I&#8217;ve driven there, getting out and home is the worst.<br />
Also, although I&#8217;m not against a train transit system, it was a heck of a lot cheaper to build a stadium with a roof on with taxpayer funds than it would be to build a light rail system connecting multiple areas with Miller Park being a stop.    </p>
<p>One HUGE oversight in this article is that Ballpark Village in St. Louis does not exist.  It is not real.   I personally, without any architecture experience, could draw a few cool looking buildings that could be build around Miller Park  for $600+ million.. but the fact is that these buildings, like Ballpark Village, are not standing, are not going to be funded in the near future, and under current circumstances may not be built for a long while.  I don&#8217;t get how you justify even mentioning Ballpark Village in this article being a factor, as it exists only on paper.   Right now, according to the Cardinals, the area is being used for a softball field and Parking. </p>
<p>Another thing that keeps bothering me is good old Detroit.  I mean with Busch stadium, they (like most others.. and us) built the new stadium next to the old one.  But the Tigers didn&#8217;t do that.  In fact the Lions and Tigers (and, in the vicinity is rumored to be the the site of a new Redwing&#8217;s stadium) have completely bulldozed an entire swath of their downtown to accommodate their new stadium row.  I know downtown Milwaukee is not a direct comparison to downtown Detroit, but I really want to know how much it helped relocating the Tiger&#8217;s stadium from Corktown to Downtown, and I would like to make some sort of comparison as to how exactly it would benefit Downtown by relocating the Brewers there from their current (old) location.</p>
<p>And that brings up Downtown Milwaukee&#8217;s impact.   Which swath of Downtown buildings are you willing to crush in order to build a Miller Park-like stadium downtown.  No piece of land that large is unoccupied along the Milwaukee River.  And that cute old-school stadium looks nice and would be cool if it would have been build about 80 years ago, but nobody would build it today unless it was economically viable today.  </p>
<p>Yes, I like Miller Park the way it is, and although some stadiums are built right in their downtown area&#8217;s, ours isn&#8217;t, and hasn&#8217;t been since perhaps Borchert Field sat where I-43 sits now.  It&#8217;s hard to imagine downtown with a Miller Park-like ballpark.  What it would gain from it and what it would lose for it to happen could be one long discussion.  Thankfully, the &#8220;Thursday Architects&#8221; were wrong, and Miller Park didn&#8217;t open west of Milwaukee.  They opened on 1 Brewers Way IN Milwaukee.  I know countless fans who wouldn&#8217;t have it any other way.  25 games into this season, and we&#8217;ve got the 9th highest avg attendance of any major ball park, including a higher ballpark utilization percentage than St. Louis (88.2 vs. 86.3), and it really seems that it eventually comes down to how large the stadium is itself and  how good the team that plays in it is more than where it is and how many transit stops are by it.</p>
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